tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post4339240071124765282..comments2023-10-05T23:00:32.066-04:00Comments on Dreambound: About Vortex: The Structure of a 10-man GuildKaehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-88276329236953598472010-12-01T11:11:07.900-05:002010-12-01T11:11:07.900-05:00That was a great read (along with your post about ...That was a great read (along with your post about beating HLK as a guild).<br /><br />We are, with my friends, in the process of building a 10-man guild for Cataclysm. I found a lot of your guild in ours : people tired of leading 25-man raids, a tight group, hardcore goals with limited schedule.<br /><br />Like you, we choose 3 officers for 12-15 raiders. Our forums and gchat are very active, as is our TS. Our guild rules are very long and explain very precisely what we want from our guildies : an applicant really have to be dedicated to join. We make no concession about the preparations for raiding : enchants/gems, tactics and videos, be on time, sign up on the calendar, know your role as a class/spec for the different fights, take part in the strategy's discussion. We are less strict with rerolls, casuals and pick-up but expect them not to hinder us.<br /><br />We also have a "no trade chat trash" rule, including trolling the official forums with our tag. This rule was hard for some guildies who love word fights over a forum, but it was for their own good... :D<br /><br />And about loot system, we choose a DKP named Shroud Loot System, where an item you really want costs you half your points, a lesser upgrade (or no competition) cost a fixed minimum price. If several people use the minimum bid, we roll, that add a bit of random into the looting process that some raiders like. We reset the points at each new content patch, that way, everyone is on the same line for new loots. At the moment, we use free rolls with no ML as it's old content and no one really needs upgrades... We see it more a way to balance who gets loot because it's not easy to follow when there is no ML and we expect the system to balance itself so we, officers, don't have to make decisions about who gets what. I talked about it on my blog the other day.<br /><br />And about attendance, during Christmas holidays or summer, we put into our guild rules that these periods are free time : raids are run but no DKP, no hard schedule, alts/friends raids, no attendance obligation. It's mainly because us officers and RLs might be away sometimes 2 at a time. The other reason it's difficult to run progression raids with half the roster scaterred around the country for holidays. Like we say in my guild "curse you real life !" :D<br /><br />I wish you and your guild all the best in Cataclysm. The changes to raids IDs will change many guilds. On my server, there are tens of new 10-man guilds recruiting all over. Many will collapse over the first hardmodes and we will see how strong we are, as a guild, when we will hit really hard fights. We passed the HLK test already, so I'm pretty confident.Nefernethttp://krasuskronicles.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-87155905834919258462010-11-08T13:06:19.648-05:002010-11-08T13:06:19.648-05:00Congrats on your drakes, though! They are in them...Congrats on your drakes, though! They are in themselves a huge accomplishment, and one that will look cool flying over Azeroth come December :)Kaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-29396827565308661702010-11-08T09:54:09.810-05:002010-11-08T09:54:09.810-05:00I have run a 10 man guild for most of WotLK. Final...I have run a 10 man guild for most of WotLK. Final Element on Eonar US. Yours' is the first guild I've seen that uses a similar raid spot selection policy as my guild. I hate having people benched for the entire night so we rotate people per-boss or per-wing depending on the content. On progression it may add a little extra time because of rotating people in, but in the long run it has worked really well for us. You have to have unselfish raiders for that system to work though. Luckily, we do in my guild and it sounds like you do in yours as well.<br /><br />We recently started working on HM LK after getting the drakes for our 12 core raiders. Unfortunately, myself and our other RL need a break so it looks like we won't be getting that achievement before Cata. That's ok though. The drakes were my main goal for ICC and we've accomplished that.Gunterhttp://finalelement.guildzilla.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-83025973024801116732010-11-07T18:00:55.078-05:002010-11-07T18:00:55.078-05:00?? "Few people will argue that drama kills g...?? "Few people will argue that drama kills guilds" is grammatically sound. Argue vs agree, makes sense to me.Kaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-69443961193319013132010-11-07T15:50:33.811-05:002010-11-07T15:50:33.811-05:00Shouldn't your drama policy state "MOST p...Shouldn't your drama policy state "MOST people would argue that drama kills guilds"?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15747362746258957514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-44724605294527247742010-11-03T15:26:48.743-04:002010-11-03T15:26:48.743-04:00Oh, and loot distribution. We've never had to...Oh, and loot distribution. We've never had to use our loot council, nor do we have to keep up with DKP. I think having such a small raid contributes greatly to our ease of throwing gear around! Loot in itself has created officers in other guilds whose sole responsibility is managing it... and we just throw it around like it's a Happy Fun Rock.<br /><br />XDKaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-4330207504199400832010-11-03T15:20:14.042-04:002010-11-03T15:20:14.042-04:00Beru,
I fervently believe in the statement that 10...Beru,<br />I fervently believe in the statement that 10 are easier to wrangle than 25 :) 25, of course, are easier than 40... I've helped run guilds in all 3 sizes, and found it significantly less work to handle 10 (well, 14 on the roster). Fewer cliques, fewer conflicts, fewer to recruit, and much easier to keep track of things like gear, specs, skill progression, etc... it boils down to being able to either devote more time to each individual raider, or just putting less of a time-commitment on the leadership team since they don't have so many raiders to keep track of :) <br /><br />Similarly, I find it easier to teach a small group of kids than I do a large group. Larger groups are not as personal, so I struggle with keeping all of their attention focused on the task (or making sure they all understand) without breaking them into smaller groups with their own leaders... officers, as it were. Ironically, my camp is paring down its class sizes to 10 this next year.<br /><br />As for attendance, I think it's proportional. With 13-14, we have room to have a few missing; tanks are the biggest limiting factor, but that's partially due to our class distribution (lots of ranged = few tank offspecs). On major holidays, we might have to cancel a raid, which happens to 25's, too. Sometimes luck has us with only 8 or 9 available, but we often fill those spots with our casuals or even a pugger (we've recruited that way, actually...)<br /><br />What has been harder is the raid makeup, balancing to maximize buffs and class abilities. The 4.0 changes ultimately made that less of a problem than it was, but there will still be the ranged vs melee balance and their respective buffs. You just can't fit all of the classes and specs into 10 slots :(Kaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-59745283541354803432010-11-03T14:15:32.763-04:002010-11-03T14:15:32.763-04:00This was a great read Kae! Thanks for sharing it ...This was a great read Kae! Thanks for sharing it :)<br /><br />Interestingly enough - you guys run things very similarly to how we run things, which I found intriguing!<br /><br />I know people say that part of what makes 10 mans so lovely is that it's easier to wrangle 10 people together than 25. But I've often wondered how much truth there really is to that. I'm curious to know what your opinion on it is, do you think that statement is true? Even if it is - do you think that there are other challenges (attendance, etc) that make facets of running a 10 man raid team perhaps more challenging than a 25 man team?Beruthielhttp://www.fallingleavesandwings.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-23013887780411656182010-11-03T10:14:20.757-04:002010-11-03T10:14:20.757-04:00I love to watch bidding wars, they're exciting...I love to watch bidding wars, they're exciting :D And everything else was done with an addon, all the master looter had to do was enter the winning bid and then upload the data to the site. The addon could even whisper you your DKP so you wouldn't have to check the site for it.<br /><br />As for a veteran stockpiling their DKP... it's their right for being there at every raid. But if they bid for a sidegrade a few people would point out that someone else needs it more. Except one person (said warlock bidding on a healer item, who thankfully isn't a core raider), everyone else has a big dose of common sense.Jenhttp://www.storiesofwow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-59081356924032467412010-11-03T09:38:21.749-04:002010-11-03T09:38:21.749-04:00Great read! I have lots of small comments and que...Great read! I have lots of small comments and questions about various parts but don't want to drop a novel in your comments section. Sounds like both of our guilds are headed in the same direction but coming from different histories and backgrounds. Same general loot practices and raiding policies though. I would never raid any other way again myself.Gaiahttp://10manraiding.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-47456457206994669392010-11-03T08:31:12.974-04:002010-11-03T08:31:12.974-04:00Thanks for the educational post. I think it opene...Thanks for the educational post. I think it opened my eyes to a few things I missed when thinking about the future. <br /><br />A lot of that sounds like our core already. Just wish we could get more then 7 dependable people. That is always the hard part.TheGrumpyElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07621615711198405365noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-24488526329369737622010-11-03T02:05:46.468-04:002010-11-03T02:05:46.468-04:00I have to inspect Kuchki and direct loot towards h...I have to inspect Kuchki and direct loot towards her, otherwise she turns everything down and never gets any upgrades :( Silly priest!<br /><br />I found DKP to take just as long as loot councils in similar raid sizes. All the bid-wars, checking DKP totals, then having to tally things and keep track of what went where for how much... my hubby still has an old notebook from MC/BWL/AQ40 days with lists and lists and lists of loot. Not sure if he has the BC lists. Addons helped, but only so far, and then people would stockpile their DKP for one major item and blow it all, and new players to the guild wearing a blue would be out of luck when someone decided they wanted what, to them, was a sidegrade. Headache.<br /><br />DKP was blindly methodical. Loot Council *can* be corrupted, but doesn't have to be. Our current system of just sharing and shoving loot at each other is easiest, for us, though :D <br /><br /><br />(RE: vanq tokens... no bag space for a fourth spec set, kthnxbai)Kaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-61721479943619983552010-11-02T23:34:12.830-04:002010-11-02T23:34:12.830-04:00Vanq tokens are my favorite loot to see:
"Da...Vanq tokens are my favorite loot to see:<br /><br />"Damnit... All right guys, who wants it? Bus? How's your Cat(third kit) gear looking?"<br />"All set."<br />"Hmm... Kae, do you need Boomk-"<br />"No."<br />"Uh... Calla! Clearly, mages need more than one kit, right? Right. Enjoy."<br />"Wait, what?"<br /><br />'tis super chill. When more than one person does find an item to be a legitimate upgrade, we are surprisingly good at backing off. It truly does boil down to, "No, you can have it; it's okay." As for those caster trinkets and other highly-desirables, /roll takes the day. It's so different from what I used to that I'm amazed, and happily so, to be a part of it.<br /><br />My only complaint with Vortex is our roster limit. We've had a couple of really excellent applicants come along that, despite doing everything they could, simply couldn't fit the narrow opening we had. And, as stated, we don't recruit for the sidelines - that really wouldn't be fair to anyone. <br /><br />But then, I wouldn't have it any other way. I know why we have the limit, and it really does wonders for keeping everyone active, engaged, but not so pressured to attend every raid because there's absolutely no one to cover the spot. More people would just saturate the roster, and any fewer would pressure a lot of key roles (tanks, healers) to have 100% attendance or force raids to be canceled. I'm just sympathetic to those we can't take on, especially when they play one (or both) of their roles with such polish.<br /><br />PS: You may want to remind Kuch "Do not LifeGrip me into the fire." Otherwise, the raid is totally getting s'mores when you pop ToL CD.Theladashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02882008381356231060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-68611918841718728622010-11-02T17:36:01.918-04:002010-11-02T17:36:01.918-04:00Well... The way our look council would work if we ...Well... The way our look council would work if we ever had to use it is this: <br /><br />Do a random in raid and find some raiders, At least one officer, and the GM go into a separate vent channel.<br />The GM is usually silent, and a tie breaker unless they are designated one of the officers, then the other officer plays GM role. <br /><br />The ML asks for tells on the item. With those tells a person can say "Best in slot" or whatever comment they want to make about the loot. Some cases they might say.. "if so and so wants it i pass."<br /><br />The ML then provides the information to the loot council via Tells. <br />The council takes into consideration attendance, performance, degree of upgrade, and how much loot the person has gotten in say a month's time in relation to others in on the item. <br /><br />(We tracked loot using a DKP system, but without any dkp points, just informational only. Same with attendance.)<br /><br />Once all factors are considered, then council votes. Majority wins. Ties are broken by the GM or (Acting gm).<br /><br />At that time the council disbands and loot is distributed. <br /><br />Back in the day we'd random for the raider and officer spots at the start of the raid to save time later. <br /><br />This keeps the council kosher. Any favoritism would even out over time, especially since in the council system we would use, a loot whore could never exist since they could never get loot over someone else all things being equal, if they have a lot more loot that month then someone else.<br /><br />In a 25 man it worked very well for us, even if it did take some time. Keep in mind, that loot council can take place while trash is being pulled. Much like our loot discussions are today. Only person that needs to stay with the body is the ML.Alyaenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-28091270232587427852010-11-02T16:58:13.129-04:002010-11-02T16:58:13.129-04:00Even though loot council is our official loot meth...Even though loot council is our official loot method, our looting mostly comprises of "you take this, no U, oh ok let's just roll". Occasionally we use "loot master poragative" which is where our LM just throws random stuff into random bags. Sounds fun, eh?<br /><br /><br />Oh, and, BALLS O STEEL.Beranabushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405946379270456095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-58634265241197464352010-11-02T16:07:44.326-04:002010-11-02T16:07:44.326-04:00Is DKP unusual for 10-man guilds? We never conside...Is DKP unusual for 10-man guilds? We never considered anything else, I've used it all my WoW-life and it feels the fairest to me. In an ideal world we could just use common sense, but we have had the odd loot whore and I think DKP is very good for rewarding people who show up. We generally run into the "no, YOU take it" issue, but I think having points makes people feel like their raiding is getting them something tangible (and it stops the people who only show up for farm night from getting too much stuff). <br /><br />Loot council is a can of worms to me, I think it's very time consuming and error prone (I have no idea what other people's BiS gear is), so it's last on my list of potential systems. Very, very rarely we'll tell someone they can't have an item because it's obviously not for them - warlock with Abracadaver rolling on Mag'hari against a healer - but that's happened just a handful of times.<br /><br />We're on a raiding break right now, pretty much (just normals). We stopped in September after we got our wyrms, and a couple of the raiders needed a break due to burnout/real life. With the players we have available now there's no way we'll kill H Sindi again, so we won't even see H LK. I don't mind it really - the wyrm was my ultimate goal this expansion and I'm happy with the holiday. I get to finally sleep! :D (And I'm glad we're giving my RL a break too, she was really stressed out for the last days of raiding and I don't want to lose her because of that.)<br /><br />Our guild chat is shark free... but it's full of inappropriate flirting (usually the guys among themselves! and they're all straight except for one), teasing and "that's what she said". Today we had a South African gazelle that ended up in someone's plate...Jenhttp://www.storiesofwow.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-22021671537014394372010-11-02T15:33:37.890-04:002010-11-02T15:33:37.890-04:00Interesting that you use DKP, I hadn't expecte...Interesting that you use DKP, I hadn't expected to see that with a 10-man guild :) <br /><br />Good luck to Soulbound as well; hopefully you'll be able to get HLK yourself before Deathwing flies over! Are you still working on him?<br /><br />(Also, do you get shark attacks in gchat? :D )Kaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16164718601021220108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5273077195457377371.post-90226320762772749402010-11-02T13:41:26.262-04:002010-11-02T13:41:26.262-04:00That sounds like an awesome guild to be in... and ...That sounds like an awesome guild to be in... and I'm happy to say it sounds a lot like mine! To a scary degree actually - except for the loot council (we use DKP), this could be a description of Soulbound. We're younger, just 6 months old, but I hope we make it to 2 years.<br /><br />Good luck in Cataclysm! If you managed to live through heroic Lich King (the fight and the stress), I'm sure you can do anything now :DJenhttp://www.storiesofwow.comnoreply@blogger.com